Amongst the rum makers that capture both the historical gravitas and modern-day admiration, Barbados' very own Foursquare Distillery occupies an undeniably special place in the hearts of rum enthusiasts worldwide.

Foursquare’s celebrated reputation is driven by none other than Richard Seale, the current owner, distiller and master blender, widely known for his dedication to authenticity, unyieldingly purist ethos and his forthright, no-nonsense manner with rum makers who may be cutting corners.

This makes Richard an absolute joy for us to interview. Conversations and masterclasses with him are invariably candid and deeply engaging. In fact, back in 2023, we had the pleasure of engaging with Richard in an extended conversation about the rum universe at Whisky Live Singapore, which spiralled delightfully into a journey through the intricate corridors of rum’s rich history– from the drinking habits of 18^th century aristocrats to fermentation techniques.

| Read our earlier interview with Richard Seale: Don’t Call Foursquare Experimental

Since that chat we had in Singapore, Richard has not rested on his laurels. Far from it—Foursquare has pushed its own impressive boundaries further, recently unveiling its oldest expression yet: the 18-year-old Covenant ECS. There’s also been a series of novel ECS expressions exploring more unusual cask types previously less seen in rum circles including the Equipoise ECS (aged in Calvados barrels), Foursquare-Velier Absolutio (Port casks), Equidem ECS (Black Muscat casks) and Convocation ECS (Madeira casks).

Even beyond Foursquare's doors, there’s been a compelling surge of interest in rums with a singular focus on terroir and origin. Martinique’s Gregory Vernant, owner-distiller of Neisson and notably a good friend of Richard Seale’s, turned heads with the Neisson Godinot single-parcel expression. Fellow Barbadian distillery Mount Gay has also unveiled its own cane-to-bottle single-estate release in the Mount Gay Single Estate.

So, what have been the latest developments at Foursquare? And how does the famously discerning Richard view these broader market developments?

At La Maison du Whisky Singapore, we recently had another opportunity to sit down and reconnect with Richard to delve deeper into these timely questions!

Follow Foursquare Rum Distillery: Instagram | Official Site

Follow La Maison du Whisky Singapore: Instagram | Official Site

Real innovation is not phoning up someone and saying, ship me some stupid barrel of orange wine or a Tabasco barrel. That's not innovation. It's just frivolous… If you look at the last pot still we used, the copper that we use – it's influenced by the latest material science in the catalytic effect of the copper.

[88B]: As of recent Exceptional Cask Series (ECS) releases, Foursquare has demonstrated that it is able to age its rums very well even at the rums approach ever closer to 20 years of age, and then also the recent spate of exotic cask finishes from Calvados to Black Muscat.

What do you have in mind in terms of where Foursquare is headed, and are there new angles that Foursquare is exploring – bearing in mind your thoughts on the misuse of words “innovation”?

[Richard]: We do what we call real innovation. Real innovation is not phoning up someone and saying, ship me some stupid barrel of orange wine or a Tabasco barrel. That's not innovation. It's just frivolous.

I’d love to tell you about innovation in the sense of, if you look at the last pot still we used, the copper that we use – it's influenced by the latest material science in the catalytic effect of the copper. Because stills are originally made out of copper, because of the heat conduction, eventually we learned that copper plays a very, very important role and it's not even all fully understood.

Its main role is the catalytic effect. If you can make your pot still, now, you may not want to change the size or shape of your pot still due to thermodynamic properties of it. But how do you improve the catalyticity of it? And that's where the material science comes in. So if you can make the pot still to the exact same shape you want it, and the exact size you want it, the copper works better. Then you can get a better result.

Foursquare Rum Distillery is home to two unique types of still for Rum production. An artisanal copper pot with a double retort, and a traditional twin column Coffey still - each still producing its own distinct style and character of rum.

And then, of course, the other thing with our last pot still is it runs on a vacuum. Our column still runs on a vacuum. Two pot still - one is completely atmospheric, and the other one runs on a vacuum. So of course, that's innovation. That's technology. That takes some knowledge to do. But you're still running a classic double retort [pot still]. You're just using the technology to age the rum!

And the other one I love to describe, which is wonderfully ironic. Is if you think of fermentation. So at Foursquare, we do what we call modern fermentation, which is added yeast. So that's nearly every spirit in the world uses added yeast - it's modern practice – modern as in 100 plus years. But we do 100% natural fermentation.

The fermentation room at Foursquare Distillery (Source: Jenna Elie)

But the irony there is that modern fermentation yeast works very reliably, the technology or the investment in lab equipment on natural fermentation is far greater. We actually employ more lab equipment on the natural fermentation. So it's a 400-year-old method, but we are blessed with 21st century tools. And that's kind of ironic, because the modern process of using added yeast has worked so well - we don't even need to monitor that!

But the natural fermentation is something that we have to pay the greatest attention to. And we have these tools that weren't available to the rum distiller 200 years ago. So that's another interesting perspective.

When people come to Foursquare, and we go to the natural fermentation room, when they walk in that room, I say to them, “there's a bit of modern technology in here, right in front of your face.” The answer is the stainless steel.

So here I am doing this method that's 400 years old. But it doesn't mean I have to do it in ignorance. I don't have to go and use a wooden fermenter because today, I know and understand, what's going on better and I understand how I can keep undesirable exogenous bacteria out by using stainless steel. So I can use this method and as they say, have 21st century knowledge. And that's innovation! We're not trying to change anything. We're just trying to do it well.

Finding a double still was like finding a missing link in the fossil record. It is not well appreciated that the design of stills used in rum were influenced by local distillers [in the Caribbean]. The common assumption is that stills must have been solely designed in the UK but this is clearly false.

[88B]: So innovation to you isn’t about one-off experiments for a specific expression that you never revisit in future. It’s about raising the quality of Foursquare’s spirit as a whole.

[Richard]: Yeah! That's why I said – when we last had that chat in Singapore regarding experimentation – experimentation implies you're dissatisfied with what you have and you need to change it, you need to improve it. Experimentation happens in science because we want to improve and make new things. But I don't want to change the rum, I just want to do it well. So, that's why I don't like terms like experimentation.

I don't like the term innovation only because it's abused. I mean, yes, there's room for real innovation. But one of the things that's become oxymoronic is to talk about Geographical Indications and innovation as if they're in some kind of opposition to each other. That's how stupid things have become– that the idea that protecting your origin is somehow stifling innovation? When the innovation that is being stifled is really frivolous nonsense. It's never stifling real innovation.

[88B]: We recently heard that you’ve had some interesting experiences finding or hunting down historical or experimental stills across the Caribbean. Could you tell us more about these stills? How did you become aware of their existence?

[Richard]: In our research we have documented that possibly from the late 18th but certainly early 19th century, rum makers in the Caribbean employed modified batch (pot) stills. Distillation was not simple double distillation as practiced in Scotland but stills had modified heads (of varying designs) for additional rectification or double stills were employed.

Eventually the double retort (a single still with two retorts) became the dominant still in the anglophone Caribbean. Even a double retort would be operated with modified heads or a rectification section, although notably not in Jamaica where the simple double retort was common. They were not experimental, modification batch stills were used as matter of course.

Occasionally we find an old still in a museum or old disused still at a distillery. We also have some pictures of old stills before they were lost. An old double still, built in Barbados in the 19th Century sitting in the grass on an old long discontinued sugar estate in Dominica was a particularly remarkable find.

I can’t say we hunt for these, we just get lucky if we can find some physical evidence to match the historical records.

One of the things we do is you won't ever see us doing trivial or gimmicky casks. We only ever focus on casks from recognised denominations of very high quality… As far as we're concerned, we're not doing anything revolutionary. Old-fashioned principle and good rums. You won't see any silly barrels from us.

[88B]: Could you also share with us then how these stills evolved with time? And surely you must have some guesses as to what sort of flavour profiles they’d create - could you tell us more about that?

[Richard]: This is the more challenging subject - to understand the evolution. There is a lot of overlap. Stills could be employed over decades. So it is not easy to understand a clear chronological record or understand the evolutionary steps.

Contrast this say with cars, you can almost always date a photo if cars are present because cars evolved quickly and people changed their cars relatively rapidly. We know the double retort was well-established and in place in the 1840s, but exactly how common by this point, we do not know. Other still designs were certainly around for much later because stills lasted decades.

[88B]: Could you also share with us a memorable experience you’ve had in finding a specific still?

[Richard]: The still in Dominica was a very special case. It was a double still without modified heads, a design that probably pre-dated modified batch stills and the double retort. Moreover, it had been built in Barbados. There were several copper works in the Island supporting the sugar industry. And many stills operating in the Island were built there as well as exported to the smaller Islands. The sugar industry in Dominica was very small, so it is not a surprise they imported a still.

Finding a double still was like finding a missing link in the fossil record. It is not well appreciated that the design of stills used in rum were influenced by local distillers [in the Caribbean]. The common assumption is that stills must have been solely designed in the UK but this is clearly false.

[88B]: Beyond the Exceptional Cask Series (ECS) range, as well as the collaboration series with Velier (both Velier and Habitation Velier), is there any interest in creating a new lineup or series?

[Richard]: Well, eventually ECS will come to an end, but we'll obviously continue the tradition of what we're doing. The lines won't necessarily change in terms of the kind of rums we do. You can expect Foursquare to continue to release full rums from very good quality casks.

One of the things we do is you won't ever see us doing trivial or gimmicky casks. We only ever focus on casks from recognised denominations of very high quality. Sometimes I hear words being thrown around like “experimentation.” We do not “experiment” as I’ve stressed in that previous interview with you. We use very good casks. As far as we're concerned, we're not doing anything revolutionary. Old-fashioned principle and good rums. You won't see any silly barrels from us.

All of us in the rum world are living through a sort of golden age. It builds. All of the attention we gave to rum 10 or 15 years ago - we're benefiting. If we keep the enthusiasm from up, we will keep benefiting, because people will keep investing. Long may we keep growing from strength to strength.

[88B]: More recent releases from Foursquare such as those under the ECS have largely targeted the US. Will we see more releases headed towards Asia? 

[Richard]: We try to keep a balanced allocation. Even for the US, we first started in about 16 states – the traditional states of New Orleans, Massachusetts, Connecticut, all those New England states. That slowly expanded, and it’s going to be the same thing here. Two of the most important places for us in Asia are Singapore and China – although I really mean the big cities like Beijing and Shanghai.

It's difficult for us to say that we're going to have a significant increase, because don't forget all these things are planned many years ago, and while I would have loved to have known 14, 15 years ago that I would see so much demand, what we do every year is very straightforward; we invest as much as we can. I know whatever I sell today, this was as ambitious as we could have done. We're going to try to keep growing; today I put down more rum than I did 10 years ago, and 10 years ago I put down more rum than I did 10 years ago.

Yes, the desire is to have more. But then don't forget, if you also desire to make older rum, you need more rum. So if the rum I sell today is only 10 years old, I'll have more rum than if I take that rum and kept it for 20 years. You put more rum down today, and partly that's going to deliver you more bottles. But it's also partly going to give you the same amount of bottles, but of older rum. It's always a trade-off. It's always a balance. One of the things we've tried to do is to obviously increase the age of the offerings. But you can't do that and then sell more bottles as well.

[88B]: Any thoughts on some of the new – and I use this word carefully – innovations we’ve seen as of late, from single estate expressions (like Neisson’s Godinot) to doing a full cane to bottle expression (Mount Gay’s Single Estate)?

[Richard]: We would be unlikely to release a single estate. It's not that we don't have the ability, but don't forget we're still quite small in terms of our single estate capacity, and how we should grow and manage Foursquare. Mount Gay is a lot more ambitious than us - they have a couple hundred acres. They have, if you might say, more power to do it.

Also, they’re investing a lot into a single estate identity, and I think that's very clever. But it means also I don't necessarily want to go in that road, because it's not fun for anyone if we both try to do the same thing. We have our own cane. We'll always see juice as an important element going forward in the future, but we will manifest it in our usual way, which is blends. It will be blends of our juice, and the molasses, and part and parcel. The core of what we do will be blends.

I do worry every time something silly comes out. There's nothing wrong with silly cheap products. The issue becomes whether those products have a negative effect on developing the high-end.

[88B]: What are some trends in rum that we should be paying more attention to?

[Richard]: I think everyone who's a rum enthusiast is enjoying the fact that rum has been on this renaissance for the last 15, 20 years. And we're seeing the benefit in that in terms of investment. So you've seen some wonderful core releases. And why are you seeing that? Because 10 or 15 years ago, they could make the decision, “I'm going to keep some of this already old rum and age it even older.” And then you see the massive investment from Mount Gay to dedicate themselves to single estate.

All of us in the rum world are living through a sort of golden age. It builds. All of the attention we gave to rum 10 or 15 years ago - we're benefiting. If we keep the enthusiasm from up, we will keep benefiting, because people will keep investing. Long may we keep growing from strength to strength.

I do worry every time something silly comes out. There's nothing wrong with silly cheap products. The issue becomes whether those products have a negative effect on developing the high-end. That's the issue.

We would love to see the big boys like Diageo and Pernod Ricard invest in the high-end. We mentioned how Bacardi has spent a long time trying to get their premiumisation right. It's in rum's interest if they do. It's in all of our interests if Mount Gay succeed with their single estate. It's in all of our interests if Gregory of Neisson does as well.

We have this dual interest in growing our own brand and growing the rum category. As I say, all of the good stuff you see now has been built on the last 15, 20 years of rum. I always explain to people that, you know, we launched Doorly’s XO 20-odd years ago. If that didn't succeed, nothing else comes. If Doorly’s XO didn’t do well, I wouldn’t make a decision to keep stock at 12. If 12 doesn't do well, I don't make a decision to keep stock for the older ones. And I wouldn’t invest in enough stock to have the Foursquares.

So, we're benefiting from the growth of the category over the last 15 years.

[88B]: I suppose people only really understand what you're talking about when you relate to something that they really care about.

[Richard]: Exactly! So, the issue is not in any individual product. I do sell a spiced rum product! The issue is not having an accessible, fun, inexpensive products that are sweet. The issue comes if spiced rum becomes so inordinately successful as a category, does that chase people away or hinder us in the niche, premium rum world from getting that Scotch whisky drinker or Cognac drinker.

If the Scotch whisky drinker sort of brushes us off as not worthy of his or her attention, that's what we don't want to happen. As I say, those individual spiced rum products don't take any sales away from me – the buyers are not my customer! They're not of any concern to me. In that sense, it's more the broader category.

[88B]: What is something you could say about what you're doing at Foursquare that we wouldn't believe you even if you told us?

[Richard]: Oh my goodness, that's a good question.

[Apart from premium rum] people don't necessarily assume that we want to develop other products. But we've developed locally a ginger rum liqueur. We're working on chocolate liqueur. We have also launched a range of Foursquare chocolates – so these are chocolate truffles but made with Foursquare Rum and there’s the Foursquare brand. People wouldn't expect those things. It was something that we actually started before COVID, but COVID kind of wiped everything out because obviously these products are more like duty-free.

That's why I say, we don't have anything against rum liqueurs, flavoured rums and things like that- obviously we're trying to do pretty high-end ones. We’ve done a rum cream that we do export to the UK and a little bit to America.

We're doing it in our way, in a way I think people would like us to do it. The ginger rum liqueur is made with ginger grown in Barbados. For our chocolate rum liqueur, the cocoa nibs are coming from Trinidad so we're trying to stay in the region.

These products are really mostly local. If possible we would export some of them. If you come to Barbados, we want you to enjoy old rum, but we want you to also enjoy Foursquare chocolate, rum cake, or a rum cream. Because they're all part of the culture. Barbados has been making rum cake and rum cream for generations. So, why not?

[88B]: This has been a fascinating conversation, Richard! Thank you! 

Follow Foursquare Rum Distillery: Instagram | Official Site

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