“We want to talk about Chinese wines and put those from the Himalayan origin on the map and share this story, this terroir, this humility, with those willing to explore wines beyond the traditional boundaries.”

Many wine lovers in Asia may be familiar with Emilie Steckenborn as a friendly wine content creator who breaks down important wine concepts into easily digestible bites on Instagram and also hosts a well-followed podcast "Bottled in China," which has become a go-to for those curious about the vibrant and diverse Chinese food and beverage scene. Through each episode, Emilie takes listeners on a journey through the world of Chinese drinks, introducing them to a colorful cast of industry pioneers and tastemakers.

Last month, we found out for ourselves that this effervescent, witty and effortlessly charming online wine guru was a real person, and even more delightful in person! We had the pleasure of meeting with Emilie in Singapore where she was showcasing Ao Yun, a prestige wine made in the Yunnan Province by the foothills of the Himalayas. Ao Yun has garnered international attention as the most valuable Chinese-made wine for collectors and also recently secured a position on the prestigious Place de Bordeaux.

Ao Yun's story is one of remarkable dedication and innovation. Produced in the challenging terroir of Yunnan province, its winemakers have to overcome incredible obstacles, from the literally breath-taking high altitude and thin air, to the logistical complexities of working in a remote region with limited infrastructure.

After we tasted two of the latest vintages of Ao Yun together (read our review of the Ao Yun 2019 and 2020 here!), we sat down for an interview with Emilie to gain a deeper understanding of this captivating world of China's burgeoning wine culture and Ao Yun, which is leading the way in Chinese-made wines that could rival the best of the Old World. We learnt about the distinctive characteristics of various Chinese wine regions, and how Moët Hennessy cultivates Ao Yun's exceptional value as a brand. We also delved into Emilie's personal insights on life in China and her favorite culinary destinations in Shanghai.

Let's dive right in!

Follow Emilie and her amazing podcast: Instagram | Linkedin | Bottled in China Website

“Something I find remarkable about working in China—when things happen, they happen fast. You’re told, ‘It’s time, let’s go,’ and things get done immediately.”

[88B]: We'd love for our readers to get to know you even better. I heard that you first visited China at 17 to perfect your Mandarin, and you grew up in Canada where your family enjoyed Riesling during Thanksgiving.

Could you share with us how did both your fascination for wine and for Chinese culture begin – which came first and perhaps led to the other? Were there any particular experiences, perhaps a memorable bottle or a meaningful conversation you made, that collectively led you to take the leap and pursue such a unique career path?

[Emilie]: Looking back, it wasn't very clear which one started first. Obviously, I didn't come from a wine-drinking family. Wine, in general, was something I discovered later. My grandparents were German, so they would bring a cheap Riesling you know, the sweet ones. I just remember thinking, this tastes great. But sugar also masks a lot of quality, especially when you're just starting off.

Actually, Chinese came first. I grew up in a very forward-thinking family. When I was much younger, my brother and I had a tutor, and they said, “no more German classes, focus on Chinese.”

Then, when I was about 14, I realized I wanted to pursue a career in wine. I didn't come from a drinking family, but my father—both my mother and father, actually encouraged it. My dad read a book called Bull in China, which talked about the evolution of the Chinese market and how wine and premium luxury goods might have high demand in China in the future. I was about 14, and he said, “Okay, you're going to go into the wine industry in China.” I thought that sounds so cool! And actually, it ended up happening.

I think I'm very lucky because I knew what I wanted to do early on. That's one thing. But I also think it came down to hard work—it did not come easy. If you met me in real life, I look really young, right? So you can imagine when I moved to China for the first time at 17, thinking I was going to enter the wine industry, I looked like I was 12 and didn’t speak much Chinese. Growing up, I had a tutor, but you know how it is—you do an hour a week, and it’s not enough to be fluent.

Emilie leading a tasting in Hong Kong.

There were pivotal moments where I just had to step up my game, persevere, and push through. Looking back, I feel those challenges were honestly the best thing that could have happened because they made me stronger. If I had given up easily, I wouldn’t have achieved anything. Now, when challenges come my way, I think that’s normal. And in the wine industry, you need that resilience. Imagine being 18, working in the wine industry, looking super young—but I didn’t let anything stop me. I thought, “I have so much to learn. This is going to be great.”

I embraced the moment and just kept going because you never know where it might lead. Looking back now, it seems like everything compounded and became this interesting path. But it was a really slow start. I felt like I was trying everything—maybe just like you, or your listeners. For at least five years, I remember trying everything in the wine industry and feeling like nothing was working. But I just kept going, and one day it slowly started to come together.

[88B]: Was there a moment that led you to think you’re on the right path? Was there someone you met, or a certain interaction or experience that made you realize you’re headed to somewhere really exciting?

[Emilie]: That’s a great question. Back in 2016, I was selected to be the official wine consultant for China Eastern Airlines, and that role lasted a few years. I have no idea how old I was—maybe 23 or 24, something like that. I just remember seeing the setup they had in first class, with your picture and bio displayed, and thinking, wow, this is so cringe! *Laughs*

But honestly, that was a moment where I thought, this is something that usually only MWs (Masters of Wine) or people who have been in the industry for so long would get the chance to do. To be able to do that was incredible. China Eastern Airlines is a highly respected airline—I fly with them all the time, and I’m sure you do too if you travel.

That’s when I finally felt like something was shifting—like I was no longer just treading water. It felt like there was some real momentum. But at the same time, it was the result of showing up to so many different opportunities, saying yes to a hundred different things. One opportunity just led to another.

“One thing that surprised me the most is how diverse China is… For instance, food from Wuxi, which is not far from Shanghai, is much sweeter, and even their xiaolongbao (soup dumplings) are thicker. Then you visit Xinjiang, and the cuisine is completely different again.”

[88B]: You've had an exciting journey through China's wine world. You are currently the Regional Fine Wine Development Manager for China and APAC at Moët Hennessy, though your career in China began in 2011, and you have since become well-acquainted with major cities from Shanghai to Chengdu, to even the exotic locales like Shangri-La in Yunnan.

Could you share with us, what were your biggest surprises when you first began truly living and working in China? Were there any unusual interactions or encounters that challenged your initial expectations and stand out in your memory – and equally were there any unique quirks of Chinese society that you’ve come to appreciate or love?

[Emilie]: One thing that surprised me the most is how diverse China is. There’s no one-size-fits-all when it comes to its cities or food culture. As a Westerner, your initial understanding of Chinese food might only include Shanghai, Beijing, or Cantonese cuisine. But as you travel, you realize just how much variety there is. For instance, food from Wuxi, which is not far from Shanghai, is much sweeter, and even their xiaolongbao (soup dumplings) are thicker. Then you visit Xinjiang, and the cuisine is completely different again.

Each city I visited introduced me to something new. I used to host a lot of wine events, and at every single dinner, customers would introduce me to their local specialties—whether it was a unique vegetable, dish, or flavor. That diversity still surprises me. In Canada, you tend to get the same style of food no matter where you go, but in China, every business trip felt like a new culinary adventure. As a foodie and wine lover, it was an incredible way to understand Chinese culture through its food and hospitality.

Another thing that stood out to me was how hardworking and open-minded people are in China. When I first arrived, it was during a period of significant economic growth. There was this energy and “anything-can-be-done” attitude—almost like the Wild West. People were so determined to make things happen, and they could execute projects quickly and cost-effectively compared to other countries. For example, if you wanted to launch a new product and imagined the most elaborate event, it could happen. And it wouldn’t just be a small gathering of 20 or 30 people—it would be a grand affair with 200 to even 400 attendees. The scale and speed at which events came together were impressive.

The resilience and “can-do” attitude of the people I worked with were truly remarkable. That inspired me because it pushed everyone, including me, to keep improving and competing. You couldn’t just relax; you had to deliver because everyone else was working just as hard, if not harder. That environment taught me incredible life lessons that I’ll cherish forever.

As for the craziest stories, I’ve had some wonderful adventures, especially drinking with all sorts of key figures in China. There’s a deep respect for their country and the people they work with, which I find very admirable. The drinking culture, though—that’s on another level! I had to participate, but I probably wasn’t the best at it.

[88B]: Being able to speak a country’s language well is an incredibly valuable skill that helps you build genuine connections and understand the culture on a deeper level. And in your case, we can see that your people skills and ability to speak Mandarin has been a great asset in your career and to the brands you manage, helping you develop relationships with wine importers, distributors and valuable consumers across North Asia.

Have you had any memorable stories that came directly thanks to the 17-year-old Émilie’s decision to pick up Mandarin?

[Emilie]: Yeah, for sure. It’s definitely been a huge help. That said, I’ll admit I could still improve my Mandarin. I didn’t put as much energy into perfecting my language skills as I did into diving into other activities and areas of interest. So I’m far from fluent, but it has absolutely been useful.

There was one memorable experience that stands out. A state government flew me over for a potential collaboration. The process itself was fascinating—and very China, if I can put it that way. They put me up in a hotel and told me to wait for their call. For those three days, I waited and worked from the only Starbucks nearby, just studying and preparing. Then, in a split second, everything happened all at once. On the third evening, at around 7 p.m., I got a call saying, “Be downstairs in 20 minutes.”

I rushed to get ready, went downstairs, and was taken to this enormous, grand building that was completely empty except for guards stationed around. The atmosphere was surreal—dim, slightly dusty, and almost cinematic. Then, out of the shadows, a group of four men appeared, led by one gentleman walking in front. It felt straight out of a movie. We were then ushered into a massive boardroom with about 20 people.

The experience was incredible—it was such a quintessentially China moment. And that’s something I find remarkable about working in China—when things happen, they happen fast. You’re told, “It’s time, let’s go,” and things get done immediately. If you’re a foreigner or anyone looking to do deep business in China, you need to understand how this system works. It’s about patience, adaptability, and respecting their processes while finding ways to bring your own value to the table.

“What’s special about Yunnan is its longer growing season. We don’t have monsoons and we do have rainfall but it’s manageable. Unlike other regions, we don’t have to bury the vines.”

[88B]: On that note, for those of us less familiar with Chinese wines, how should we go about understanding the main winemaking regions in China? What sets them apart in terms of style, climate, geography and winegrowing practices?

[Emilie]: Maybe I’ll just talk about two or three key regions, because it’s easy to list 20 or 30 and overwhelm you.

The first is Shandong. Shandong is probably where a lot of people think of when they hear about Chinese wine. Especially if they go online and search "China winery," they’ll see these big chateaus and these kind of replicas of French estates. Shandong has been a key wine region, particularly in the north of China. It really started becoming significant in the 1980s when there was a push to develop wine culture.

Shandong became prominent because its latitude is similar to Bordeaux, which, as we know, was the global reference for wine in the ’80s and ’90s. Its proximity to the water also gives it a moderate climate—not as hot as the south or as cold as the frozen north. For a long time, it was considered the key wine region, and even now, around 80% of Chinese wine production still comes from Shandong. This region is known for large-scale production, with both major producers and some smaller boutique ones.

The moderately warm climate of Shandong was preferred by DBR Lafite for the establishment of Domaine de Long Dai (Source: Richard Haughton)

However, Shandong faces challenges. Monsoons bring a lot of rainfall, and as we all know, too much rain leads to problems like rot in the vineyard. Producers there are constantly spraying their vines to combat this, which was a big reason why we didn’t want to work there. We avoid spraying or using chemicals in the vineyard, so Shandong wasn’t the right fit for us.

That said, it’s still seen as an important region, with major investments like DBR Lafite’s project there. I think many people continue working in Shandong more out of legacy than because of its terroir. Nowadays, though, new wineries are looking to regions like Yunnan—and we’ll get to that in a bit.

The second region is Ningxia, which is much smaller and quite different. Visually, it reminds me of Mendoza—dry and arid, with the beautiful Helan Mountain range nearby. The region is close to the desert, so the conditions are extreme. It’s hot during the day but freezing in winter, which forces producers to bury the vines to protect them from the cold.

The Helan Qingxue Estate in Ningxia, where vines must be buried during winter to protect them (Source: James Suckling and Shuai Zekun)

Ningxia has gained recognition for producing high-quality wines, with a mix of medium-volume producers and smaller boutique growers. For a long time, there was significant government investment in Ningxia. Before COVID-19, for instance, it was relatively easy to secure government support to develop agriculture in the area, as they were focused on boosting the economy of what was a very poor region. They did a great job promoting Ningxia wines within China. There’s been a strong focus on education, seminars, and events like the Chengdu Wine Fair, all of which helped to elevate the region’s profile.

That area has some really famous producers. You've got Xige Estate, and of course, a few iconic wineries. I think the quality is good. But for us, the need to bury the vines made it feel too harsh, and we were looking for elegance. We found Ningxia wines to be a bit too ripe and at the same time, they often have a very minty, pyrazine character. There are two reasons for this, we think. First, it’s a very short growing season, so the grapes don’t achieve the ideal phenolic ripeness. Second, the stress placed on the vines might also contribute to this minty quality. It could be a combination of both factors.

Then of course there’s Yunnan. To give you an idea of where Yunnan is, it’s in the south of China. If you’ve heard of Shangri-La, our location is just a few hours away from there. In my opinion, Yunnan is by far the most exciting wine region. You’ve got Ao Yun, which really pioneered growth of the area, and the Shangri-La Estate, which we started collaborating with.

Our wines are made at an altitude of about 2,600 meters. Although Yunnan is on the same latitude as Morocco, the high altitude allows for wine production. When Dr. Tony Jordan visited Yunnan, he discovered an existing wine culture. Back in 2000, the government had already planted Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc vines, and they tasted promising. Additionally, in the 1800s, French missionaries introduced winemaking to the region. When you visit Yunnan, you’ll see remnants of that history—churches built long ago, crosses on display, and people still attending mass. Even today, there are vineyards surrounding some of these churches. Some producers are making wines from local, native grape varieties, which are more like off-dry or sweet wines—not the varieties we use.

What’s special about Yunnan is its longer growing season. We don’t have monsoons and we do have rainfall but it’s manageable. Unlike other regions, we don’t have to bury the vines. The region also has shorter periods of sunshine due to the mountains, but the extended growing season compensates for that. In cooler years, we might finish harvest as late as November or even the end of November.

So, to give you an idea, these are the three key regions:

1. Shandong – High-volume production, but challenging due to heavy rainfall and monsoons.
2. Ningxia – Resembles Mendoza with beautiful wines. However, the need to bury vines and the short growing season is challenging.
3. Yunnan – A beautiful region with many boutique producers with a rich but underappreciated winemaking history.

What I love about Yunnan is that it’s the food mecca of China. You have pu’er tea, coffee, and some of the world’s best mushrooms. It’s similar to Italy, where rich food culture often coincides with great wine regions. You can see why it’s such an exciting place for winemaking.

There are of course other regions like Xinjiang and Hebei, and I’ve also heard about areas further north, like Chengdu, with its mountain ranges producing more and more great wines. That might be the "next Yunnan." But for now, Yunnan stands out as one of the best regions.

“We believe drinking Ao Yun is like drinking something iconic in its early days. Imagine drinking a DRC in their first vintages—that’s how I see Ao Yun. The quality is there, but it’s also a wine that’s changing the global perception of Chinese wines.”

[88B]: Now, I’d like to discuss Ao Yun’s meteoric rise, not only becoming the most valuable Chinese wine for collectors but also gaining global recognition for its world-class quality, even earning a place on the prestigious Place de Bordeaux. This is an incredible achievement for a young winery which released its first wine in 2016. You’ve also previously mentioned how vital brand building is in China, where reputation plays a huge role in purchasing decisions, especially since bottles are often purchased as gifts or opened for guests as gestures of hospitality.

Could you share some of the key efforts or decisions taken by your team that has helped build Ao Yun’s reputation and establish its prestige in China? Are there any unique approaches that have resonated the most with Chinese consumers in shaping the perception of Ao Yun as a world-class wine?

[Emilie]: Wow, that’s a great question. Let me break it down into a few points.

First, yes, we are a young winery, and we believe drinking Ao Yun is like drinking something iconic in its early days. Imagine drinking a DRC in their first vintages—that’s how I see Ao Yun. The quality is there, but it’s also a wine that’s changing the global perception of Chinese wines. Not every producer can claim that. It’s a privilege to work with something so iconic, and it’s a pleasure every time I present it.

Ao Yun's Estate Director, Maxence Dulou.

How did we get here? The key is that we took our time. We carefully selected the right location and parcels, learning as we went. In the beginning, we used only Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc, but now we’ve introduced Petit Verdot and a touch of Syrah, evolving the blend. Early on, we thought we needed a lot of oak for aging because of the lack of oxygen in our remote location. But now we’ve learned to embrace our strengths—focusing on freshness and retaining the wine’s natural acidity, which is among the highest in the world for red wines. We don’t acidify; it’s all natural. To enhance this freshness, we’ve even started using baijiu clay jars to age some of our wines, which keeps the wines authentic and helps us find our own voice. That authenticity is key to being accepted as a fine wine on par with the best in the world.

Second, it’s about precision—both at the winery and at the viticulture level. For example, we dedicate about 3,500 hours per year per hectare in the vineyard. Everything is done by hand; we don’t use machines because our location is so remote. This means the soil is never compacted, and we can carefully monitor and care for each vine. Our vineyard work requires four times more effort than in most conventional vineyards. From there, we make a strict selection—only 50–60% of the grapes make it into Ao Yun. To become the best, we need to put in only the best.

Our Estate Director Maxence Dulou, does that very well, and he has a vision for excellence. And that’s something we try to apply to every fine wine at Moët Hennessy., whether it’s Bodega Numanthia, Joseph Phelps, or Ao Yun. Maxence always reminds us to act like a small estate—a grower who focuses on craftsmanship rather than trying to "flash" everything. That’s what makes Ao Yun so special – it feels like a luxurious wine. But when you meet our team, you’ll see we’re very down-to-earth and we want to share our story and we want you to learn about the story. We’re not here pretending to have all the answers. We’re constantly exploring how to improve our work in the vineyard and the winery. We believe that’s how we’re going to build Ao Yun.

We want to talk about Chinese wines and put those from the Himalayan origin on the map and share this story, this terroir, this humility, with those willing to explore wines beyond the traditional boundaries. Every day, we’re sharing these stories of the team behind Ao Yun and how they bring this excellence to the world. There’s still so much more to do, so we’re not perfect, but we’re on this quest to be.

[88B]: What makes Ao Yun’s terroir so special compared to other Chinese producers? And more broadly, what stands out about the experience of winemaking at Ao Yun and in China? How has this unique story and identity been communicated to consumers, both within China and globally?

[Emilie]: Let’s start with the terroir and how it’s different.

Ao Yun is located at a high altitude of around 2,500 meters, which automatically changes everything. At this height, we have very high UV exposure, which affects the grapes. The berries develop thicker skins, leading to deeper color and more intense tannins. There’s also less oxygen at this altitude, which influences how the grapes and wine evolve.

Another key factor is the long growing season. We sometimes finish harvest as late as November 25th, which is quite unique. This extended ripening period, combined with cold nights, helps us retain natural acidity and purity in the wines. Unlike regions like Bordeaux, we don’t face the pressure of sudden rains disrupting harvest. In our case, a long growing season often means a great growing season.

We also get slightly less daily sunshine due to the surrounding mountains, which provide shading.

At the winery, we dedicate around 3,500 hours of manual work per hectare annually. We also deal with 25% less oxygen than most other winemaking regions due to the altitude. I’m sure you would have read about New World wineries using techniques like micro-oxygenation or new oak barrels to introduce oxygen into the winemaking process. This can help soften tannins, make the wine more approachable, or reduce greenness. Initially, we were concerned that the lower oxygen levels might prevent our wines from evolving properly. However, we’ve learned to embrace this as an advantage.

When the grapes come in, we also adjust our crusher based on the size of the berries from each plot. This ensures the grapes are only lightly crushed, so that any tannins extracted are the finest tannins.

Like I said, we’re also aging our wines in baijiu clay jars, which is becoming more of a trend. While clay and terracotta jars are gaining popularity, we use them to maintain the purity and freshness of our wines.

These small choices help make Ao Yun what it is.

[88B]: A big part of the Ao Yun allure is this tale of human resilience and ingenuity to overcome some immense challenges to harness the unique terroir in this remote part of Yunnan.

What in your experience has been the best way to showcase to consumers this remarkable story and highlight the dedication involved in producing Ao Yun? How have consumers responded to it?

[Emilie]: Usually, when I speak with consumers outside Mainland China, just getting them to know that China makes wine—or makes good-quality wine—is already the first step. Everything you mentioned about the challenges, from different languages to the work involved in building a winery and dealing with the lack of oxygen, is absolutely true. Those challenges reflect the dynamics of working in a very isolated region. We're in the Himalayan mountain range, in an area that's incredibly remote. So, it’s also about highlighting the journey.

I think it depends on the level of the consumer. For instance, I was just in Thailand for a masterclass, and people there were much more interested in basic questions like, "Where is China making wine?" and "Is it actually good?" Then they wanted to know do you add things to your wine? Because they've heard a lot of stories—and understandably so. Just the other day, someone said, "Chinese wines just add tannins and coloring, don’t they?" No, no. Ao Yun doesn’t do any manipulation.

We’re probably the most extreme version of that. For example, Maxence Dulou, who leads Ao Yun, previously worked at Château Cheval Blanc before joining us. And with LVMH and Moët Hennessy, we’re firmly in the premium segment. So, we’re definitely not doing that. A big part of this is educating people—showing them there is a serious wine culture here. Often, their first impression of Chinese wine is big-volume, inexpensive wine, so we have to re-educate them and share the story.

The first thing I always emphasize is the region—where it is—and then what makes it unique. As we discussed, the viticultural approach is so manual and exhausting that it’s unlike anywhere else in the world. There are a few regions that are challenging, but this is probably one of the most extreme.

[88B]: What about the consumers within China? What do they respond best to?

[Emilie]: Chinese consumers have so many choices now. It’s not just Ao Yun—there are a few other really beautiful wines as well. They see Ao Yun as a wine that is extremely consistent. That, I think, is what we pride ourselves on. For instance, when we released the 2019 vintage, I thought it was one of the best we’ve made so far, but now we agree that 2020 is the best we’ve made so far. So we’re constantly improving.

I think a challenge for many wineries in China, at least from my own tastings, is consistency. At Ao Yun, we only make our Ao Yun range. Beyond that, we have a small project called “village wines,” which is our Burgundy-style approach to village cru. But that’s exclusively for private clients. So, we focus on one thing—one wine—and we do it right. That’s where we take pride: in being very focused on our strategy and our style.

The wine market in China has undergone significant transformations, largely influenced by the emerging preferences of Gen Z consumers (Source: Emilie Steckenborn)

China is currently in a state of exploration. There’re natural wines, they’re 100% Cabernet Franc or Syrah, blending Marselan, or even making Riesling. It feels like they’re testing a lot of different directions, whereas Ao Yun doesn’t do that. We know what we want to do, and we stick to it. That’s where we differ.

Within China, consumers often ask us questions like, "How are you different from other wineries?" or, "Are you planning to make more diverse offerings?" For now, our focus is on perfecting what we already have.

[88B]: If you had to pick several vintages that best exemplify Ao Yun’s terroir, which would they be? Which vintages that stand out to you and what makes them special?

What are 2 or 3 of your favourite Chinese dishes that would make a fantastic pairing with these vintages of Ao Yun, and why?

[Emilie]: If you’re asking me what Ao Yun tastes like, I’d start with 2020, because that’s the vintage where we really feel happy with the result. It was a very fresh year, and it embodies what we strive for: elegance, purity, and longevity.

The vintage I love opening is the 2015. As we’ve discussed, I’m a big fan of older wines. While I enjoy new wines, I find much more pleasure in drinking something with at least 10 years of age, where it’s more open and expressive. The 2015 was a very hot vintage, but it’s now developing beautifully. It still has that dark fruit profile—blackberry and black cherry—but it’s also gaining savory, leathery notes. It’s like a flower opening up. So, if you asked me what wine to open tonight, I’d recommend the 2015.

If, instead, you wanted to purchase a wine to keep for something special, the 2020 is an excellent choice. It’s going to be gorgeous and will age beautifully for 10, 15, even 20 years without any problem.

For food pairings, if we’re talking Chinese cuisine, there are a few things to keep in mind. We always recommend avoiding vinegar, as it clashes with wine. Similarly, ingredients like green pepper or mala spices can make the wine feel unbalanced and astringent.

Dishes with rich, fatty, savoury elements do great. Something like shanghai braised pork belly (Hongshaorou) is perfect and one of my favorites with Ao Yun, especially the 2020 vintage. The wine’s acidity cuts through the fat. Or even with abalone in a rich, savory sauce. Lamb would be great as well and herbs are fine, but avoid anything too spicy, like mala. 

[88B]: Ao Yun has actively participated in many blind tasting events to benchmark its wines against prominent Cabernet Sauvignon blends from renowned regions like Bordeaux, Tuscany and Napa Valley and the results shown have been very impressive.

What is your take on where Chinese wine stands in the global wine industry at the moment? And looking ahead, what steps – whether it in terms of winemaking innovation, broader industry support etc.– do you think would help Chinese wine further solidify its position as an enduring icon in the global wine conversation?

[Emilie]: Yes, we’ve done a few blind tastings, and the results have been great, though it’s not something we do often. Actually, last year in Hong Kong, I participated in one with a few sommeliers. For that tasting, we compared the 2019 vintage of Ao Yun against Lafite, Sassicaia, and Opus One. It was fascinating because Ao Yun has this unique profile that bridges the New World and the Old World.

In terms of flavor, Ao Yun has the density and richness you might associate with Napa Valley, but it’s more restrained. At the same time, it has the freshness, brightness, and earthy complexity of an Old World wine. What makes it distinct is this hint of Chinese five spice—I often detect it in Ao Yun’s aroma. It’s not entirely New World or Old World.

For other Chinese wines, it’s hard to generalize because there’s so much diversity. That said, I’ve noticed certain things are changing. In the past, many producers relied too heavily on new oak to make premium wines, creating overly extracted wines that masked the natural flavors.

Another characteristic I’ve often seen is a strong green bell pepper or pyrazine note, especially in regions like Shandong and Ningxia. In Shandong, the rain and lack of perfect ripening can lead to these green flavors. In Ningxia, the short growing season and harsh climate can result in similar challenges. We faced this too in our early years—for example, in 2013, there was quite a bit of green character in Ao Yun. But by 2020, we’d largely tamed it. Look, a touch of greenness is part of Cabernet Sauvignon’s character.

Chinese wine as a whole still needs to find its footing. It’s not like Bordeaux, where specific regions have well-defined styles that are consistent year after year. Right now, the Chinese wine industry feels more experimental—like the craft beer-like era, where producers are exploring their own unique styles.

"In Yunnan, the biggest concern continues to be branding outside of Mainland China. But no one is doing the heavy lifting in broader international markets in places like Zurich and Tokyo. There are some encouraging efforts, though. For instance, there’s Singaporean wine expert Ch’ng Poh Tiong who has written on Chinese wines."

[88B]: Are there any identifiable trends or styles in China that you see starting to emerge?

[Emilie]: One key trend is the rise of smaller, boutique producers. What’s particularly exciting is the younger generation of Chinese winemakers who are returning to China after studying abroad and doing vintages in places like Burgundy, New Zealand, the U.S., and Australia. They’re bringing fresh energy and ideas to the industry and starting their own wineries.

There’s also a growing interest in natural wines, driven by a few producers. The styles can be a bit inconsistent, but the excitement for creating cool craft labels with a boutique feel is definitely there. And I think that’s what the wine industry needs—something fun.

A natural wine festival in Shanghai which attracts younger wine drinkers looking beyond traditional categories.

Another noticeable trend is the rise in diversity in grape varieties. When I first started my career in China, you mostly saw heavily extracted Cabernet Sauvignon, often with green notes, put into barrels—and frankly, the results weren’t great. Now, we’re seeing more elegance and precision, thanks to passionate winemakers who’ve studied abroad and are returning.

[88B]: Speaking of wine and food pairings, we have to talk about your journey as a content producer with your fantastic podcast that we’re big fans of – Bottled in China – which has huge following in both the US and China and over a million downloads. People really love the stories you’ve shared of passionate people from a very wide variety of roles who are shaking things up, and they also enjoy learning about the nuances of wine culture in Asia. In a way, Bottled in China has become a rare voice that connects the drinks cultures of China and North America.

I understand you were motivated to start this podcast because you noticed a lack of understanding of China's wine culture in the Western world. Could you tell us more about that?

[Emilie]: I started the podcast back in 2016, which, in the world of podcasts, feels like a bit of a dinosaur. The podcast was never about making money. It was born out of my experience in Shanghai at a time when the food and wine scene was evolving rapidly. China was changing, but when I’d go back to Canada, the U.S., or Paris and talk to foodies, I’d encounter so much skepticism about China. They’d say things like, “We don’t care about Chinese wine,” or, “Chinese food is unsafe—you’ll get sick if you eat at restaurants there,” or, “Chinese wine is full of pesticides.” That was the narrative in 2016—it was a joke to many people.

So, I started small, interviewing friends who were bartenders, restaurant owners, or in the wine industry. Initially, the focus was more on food and wine in general, because even within China, very few people were drinking Chinese wine. The wine scene was at such an early stage back then.

In the beginning, 78% of our listeners were from the U.S. and overseas, with only about 5% from China. Now, it’s a more even split between China and the rest of the world, which reflects the growing openness to Chinese products, even within China. That said, many consumers in China still have other choices—they can drink wines from France or anywhere else—so it’s a slow but steady journey.

The podcast doesn’t focus solely on China; it also takes a global perspective. My goal has been to feature topics and guests that are relevant to producers everywhere. For instance, many of my early listeners were foreigners, and while the podcast name Bottled in China can filter out people who aren’t open-minded about China, it also attracts a niche audience that’s curious and eager to learn.

The podcast has evolved a lot. My goal is to share stories from passionate individuals who have something to teach. It might be about tea—like a recent episode where I learned that matcha originated in China, not Japan—or about blind tasting techniques or industry insights. It’s for people in the wine, food, or beverage industry who want to understand the global scene—not just producers, but also the business side of food and wine.

There’s still so much more I’d like to do. Growth has been organic and the podcast is about sharing the stories of people I find very interesting—and I hope others do too.

I do speak to Chinese winemakers often, as it’s a small industry. Ningxia had a horrible year with heavy rain—it’s been very difficult for growers there. Many had to discard most of their production or resort to making botrytis wines. It was a really bad vintage.

In Yunnan, where I’m also close to many producers, the biggest concern continues to be branding outside of Mainland China. But no one is doing the heavy lifting in broader international markets in places like Zurich and Tokyo. There are some encouraging efforts, though. For instance, there’s Singaporean wine expert Ch’ng Poh Tiong who has written on Chinese wines, and Cathay Pacific recently started offering Ao Yun in first class for three months starting in November.

Ch'ng Poh Tiong at a Yao Family Wines showcase.

I think the industry as a whole has to come together to collectively improve quality and raise awareness, in China and externally.

"It’s the idea of putting yourself in uncomfortable situations to push your limits. If you chill at home every day with a simple job, life might be easy. But if you pushed yourself, you could uncover the endlessness of your potential."

[88B]: And beyond the wine scene, what is it about the vibrancy and dynamism of big cities like Shanghai or Beijing that you hope to capture for your listeners?

[Emilie]: It’s kind of capturing the feeling and the buzz of these places. Each region in China is so unique. Take Chongqing, for example—it’s generating a lot of buzz lately, with its iconic images of trains passing through buildings or the experience of being on the 20th floor but actually at ground level. It’s fascinating.

Then there’s Chengdu, which is incredibly fashionable and food-centric. The food scene there is incredible.

Shanghai, on the other hand, has transformed so much. Streets that once had nothing are now lined with beautiful little cafes. The drink scene is thriving, including a strong non-alcoholic drinks scene.

And then you have Hangzhou, where people are turning to tea culture as a source of serenity. It’s especially popular with Gen Z and Millennials. There’s a huge movement around tea, and it’s becoming more prominent as people reconnect with traditional practices in a modern way.

Despite the economic slowdown, there’s still an undeniable vibrancy in these cities. I recently had a winemaker friend from Bodega Numanthia in Spain visit, and he was blown away by what he saw. There’s still so much dynamism and excitement in China—it’s worth experiencing firsthand.

[88B]: Are there any emerging trends that consumers should keep an eye on?

[Emilie]: China is currently experiencing a slowdown, and spending habits have definitely shifted. Established brands, like Cloudy Bay, are able to maintain consistency and a strong presence, but it’s very challenging for new entrants to break into the market and achieve sales right now.

That said, there are still pockets of different consumer segments. Natural wine, for instance, has become quite established – as a category, it might even be getting a bit tired. Natural wine has largely become the go-to for Gen Zs or younger consumers looking for something affordable, easy to drink, and with a cool label. Yet, even the “cool kids” who were into natural wines a decade ago are now gravitating toward more classic options like classic Burgundy or grower Champagne. Similarly, fine wine lovers may explore something interesting, such as Ao Yun or Joseph Phelps Insignia.

[88B]: Before moving down to Hong Kong, Shanghai has been your home base for many years. To tourists and visitors, it's a city which blends innovation and tradition. Could you share with us some hidden gems in Shanghai that most people wouldn't know about?

[Emilie]: Wow, there are so many! But what’s crazy is how much China has changed over the years—many of my favorite restaurants have come and gone. But there’s always a few that are always there.

There’s a Yunnan restaurant I used to visit weekly called Lotus Eatery. I’ve always found Yunnan food exceptional. This has nothing to do with Ao Yun, by the way—my love for Yunnan cuisine predates my work there. The region’s dishes, with their incredible potatoes, mushrooms. Yunnan food in Shanghai is always a fun experience.

Lotus Eatery is a renowned Yunnan cuisine restaurant in downtown Shanghai (Source: Wandering Soles)

I’m also a huge coffee lover, and the coffee scene in Shanghai is incredible. Especially in the French Quarter, you can find amazing boutique cafes on almost every street. It’s perfect for foodies—just stroll around, and you’ll discover really small boutique cafes.

Another spot which I went with my best friend was a Guizhou hot pot restaurant called Maolago. The broth was a sweet-and-sour soup with enormous chunks of ginger, and they added vegetables and other ingredients. The atmosphere was set in a broken-down warehouse right in the middle of the city.

There’re lots of great spots for wine and food – Le Saleya has the best wine list and Barbar as well, which is very cosy.

Bistro Le Saleya (Source: Smart Shanghai)

[88B]: You’ve once mentioned that you were drawn to China by the opportunity to experience a radically different culture, but what kept you there has been the amazing people with whom you’ve formed lifelong friendships with. Could you share with us one memorable experience or connection that has moulded your perspective or enriched your time there. What has been a good a piece of wisdom someone shared that has stayed with you?

[Emilie]: Wow, there are so many. I believe that everyone who crosses your path is meant to teach you something, contribute to your journey, or play a meaningful role in your life. Every single person I’ve met in China has been part of that.

But I will say I’ve stayed very close to many of the people I’ve worked with, including my first boss, Dan-Dan, and colleagues like Sasha and Fei-Fei. My closest friendships and professional relationships have come from my time in Mainland China, and I feel incredibly fortunate for that.

The local Chinese people I’ve become close to have taught me so much about business and cultural nuance. For example, they showed me how to be savvy—how to navigate the gap between what people say and what they actually do, and to always remain observant and aware of the context.

If I had to pick one key takeaway, it’s the work ethic. Working in China isn’t easy—there’s always some form of chaos or challenge—but it’s about staying flexible, open, and resourceful. You learn to respect the process, remain positive, and always try to find a creative solution, no matter the obstacle. It’s being more entrepreneurial and resilient even if bad things happen.

It’s the idea of putting yourself in uncomfortable situations to push your limits. If you chill at home every day with a simple job, life might be easy. But if you pushed yourself, you could uncover the endlessness of your potential.

We are incredibly grateful to Emilie for her infectious enthusiasm and valuable insider's perspectives on the Chinese wine scene! 

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